Blah... pest ID. Confused... possible Broad/Cyclamen?

[Myco]

So I was gifted a cut of Cherry Pie that was quite healthy upon arrival, and I went ahead with my normal routine of quarantine and treating new plants before they go in with the other moms/clones/veg area... and I'm usually quite vigilant about prevention - but was away for a period of time a few weeks after getting the clone.

Anywho, I noticed odd, yet familiar stunted/shriveled growth associated with Broad mite damage. I was looking very closely at the foliage when I noticed very minute movement of an incredibly small white dot. I immediately removed the plant, as well as removed near foliage from surrounding plants and treated every plant on my compound with Cap's foliar.

Now, I'm confused because everything I've ever read about both of these devils is that they are invisible to the naked eye. Is it possible that I have superhuman vision... or could it be something hopefully less sinister?

I understand that this could be a big problem... and it's my fault for leaving and not being as cautious as I normally am. Let alone... I was a huge opponent of taking in cuts for the longest time for these reasons.

I will attempt to relocate a specimen and snap a still pic with my USB scope. I doubled bagged the dirty girl and isolated it far away from any plants so that I could possibly confirm what it is when I had a chance. I'll update this thread with a pic if possible, but until then, any ideas?

Luckily I have nothing in flower... but I need to take as best action as possible to avoid disaster. I prefer more natural methods but have no problem going nuclear to prevent, eradicate, and search and destroy.

Any input is appreciated, and a huge thanks to the community at large so that I was able to identify this potential disaster early.

 

[Myco]

Well, I think they are Broads.

Opened up the bags containing the affected clone, and within about 10 minutes I started seeing some movement. Next thing I know, I start seeing a ridiculous amount of movement.

I took some pics, but was able to capture video which I think is even more telling than the semi blurry pics. I know a lot of people ID Broads by their eggs, but with my scope, it's hard to discern any details (such as the telltale "bumps" on Broads' eggs) aside from that they are elliptical. At first I thought they weren't broads, because of the larger critter that appears to have longer legs, but apparently, the males have longer legs and the females have little stubby legs (according to what research I've done). They can be white/translucent to tan/brownish... which you can clearly see in the video.

As far as seeing them with the naked eye - I think what I saw with my own two eyes was actually a mite carrying another mite, (or two mites mating?), as I did witness this while looking through the scope, and was able to barely see movement of one tiny white speck in the same area with the naked eye. But, with the scope, I could see tons, as the video obviously shows.

The level of infestation of this one plant worries the living shit out of me that they have further colonized my veg area... but I haven't located any eggs or live mites on any mothers/clones etc in that area.

Here's the video:

This is the only plant that I've seen the damage on. Which makes it quite obvious that this plant alone was the culprit. I'm going to be as proactive as possible here... push my flower date back a little bit to treat my main room as sufficiently (which is thankfully pretty far away from the veg space, but there always lies the possibility of contamination via ME) as safely possible.

If I walk away from this relatively unscathed, it will still be yet another huge lesson learned in accepting new plants into your garden.

If all ends in disaster... well... I knew better - to say the least.

Any input is greatly appreciated, or just some good vibes. Growing cannabis is my livelihood, and this has got me stressin'.

 

[Seamaiden]

Oh man! That's making my skin crawl. I believe you're pretty on top of it, I have no experience so I won't try to offer advice, but you've definitely got me sending 'be healthy' vibes your way.

 

[shawnskush]

Fuck man they are all OVER that plant that really sucks cause they look like broads to me too. From watching everyone struggling with their broad battles I would say your best bet is nuking everything from the get go while the population is still small.

 

[Capulator]

Hopefully you already threw that plant in the fireplace. That's a cool video man, really let's you see those fuckers (and how fast they are).

 

[Coir]

Looks like broad mites to me. I recently had this same problem for the first time and am now free from them. I would be happy to fill you in on my entire process if you are interested. It involved no chemicals and I saved all but one plant.

 

[Myco]

Oh man! That's making my skin crawl. I believe you're pretty on top of it, I have no experience so I won't try to offer advice, but you've definitely got me sending 'be healthy' vibes your way.

Right? It seriously gave me the chills when I caught the first glimpse. I'm glad you have no experience with Broads! Lol. Thanks for the 'be healthy' vibes, at least :)

Fuck man they are all OVER that plant that really sucks cause they look like broads to me too. From watching everyone struggling with their broad battles I would say your best bet is nuking everything from the get go while the population is still small.

It was quite amazing when I first located those... odd thing, I took a look at probably a dozen affected leaves before finally locating a live mite, and once I do, I see full on broad mite family chaos on that one leaf. Yeah that's the plan... I wish I'd caught this earlier. I wouldn't be surprised if there's some eggs/mites on other plants, but I have no clue how fast they spread. I'm hoping it's early enough seeing as how the dirty plant was isolated most of the time.

Hopefully you already threw that plant in the fireplace. That's a cool video man, really let's you see those fuckers (and how fast they are).

Oh yes sir that plant is toasted... not worth saving by any means. I was pretty amazed how fast they are too... also amazed at despite the sub-USB-scope-pandemonium, looking in that area of that leaf with the naked eye I couldn't see a damn thing!

Your foliar pack was the first application I sprayed upon detection... if you have any tips as far as use goes feel free to fill me in, but I will be digging to see who has had success with the foliar pack to include it into the plan.

Looks like broad mites to me. I recently had this same problem for the first time and am now free from them. I would be happy to fill you in on my entire process if you are interested. It involved no chemicals and I saved all but one plant.

Please, feel free to share, I'll take any advice, and like I said I'd rather not go the chemical route (but I will if I have to).

 

[Coir]

Once I got over the initial panic stages, I set out to learn as much as I could about the enemy. It was really disheartening at first with the best solution seeming to be "move to a new house" since you can never get rid of them. Since that was not an option, I continued reading everything I could find and finally narrowed down a few things that seemed to be showing some consistency. The biggest one was heat. It seems that broads can not take temps over 110F for any length of time. I moved a space heater into my tent and shut off the exhaust fan. It took quite a while but I finally got the temp up to 120F and then held it there for 75 minutes. To my amazement the next day, I found that 99% of them were indeed dead. Because of their nature, it's impossible to get all of them though unless you dunk the plants in hot water which is not feasible for most people. The next thing I found out was that there are many commercial greenhouse growers(mostly pepper growers) battling these things lately and there have been reports of great success with the predatory mites A Cucumeris and A Andersoni. It seemed the trick with them though was early detection and then releasing far more of them than the amount of broads on the plants. I ordered 60,000 Cucumeris from my supplier immediately and the day before they showed up, I heated the tent up again. Upon releasing the Cucumeris, the numbers of broads had been reduced substantially and with 10,000 cucumeris per plant, I was confident they could win the battle. I also ordered 25000 Andersoni as I have a commercial greenhouse that I could not take a chance on spreading these things to. They come in slow release sachets so I placed one of those on each of the effected plants as well for good measure. It seems that the reason for people having reoccurring issues is that the broads will move off the plants and lay eggs just about everywhere in a room and once people replant, they come crawling back to the plants. The predatory mites will also migrate once their food source dries up and they will find the broads and eggs that are roaming free as well. I spent hours over the next couple of weeks scanning leaves under a microscope and I could not find a single broad mite anywhere. All of my plants made it to harvest and upon replanting, I moved the slow release sachets onto the new plants immediately and have not seen another broad mite anywhere since. I will continue to use the slow release predatory mites each crop as they are quite cheap compared to the alternatives and require nothing more than to hang the sachet on the plant. Cucumeris will eat just about anything it finds with thrips being it's preferred food but when there are no thrips around, it will hunt down and find whatever it can to survive on. They are very mobile and will actively seek out a food source so when there is nothing on the plants, they will move elsewhere until they find food or starve.
I randomly pull leaves every couple of days and check them but I am no longer seeing any signs of even the predators which tells me they are migrating away looking for food and more than likely just dying off which is the ultimate goal.

 

[Myco]

Thanks for the input @Coir. I have done a bit of research on Broads just because I'm a complete grow nerd and read up on everything I possibly can, so I'm just kind of reeducating myself right now on the subject. I do remember heat treatments and was planning on doing those. Right now most of the plants in question (the area where the dirty girl was) are fairly small, so I should also be able to do hot water dunks on those. Not so much the case with my larger room, those plants are nearly fully vegged. But the good thing is, that room should be relatively easy to get up to 110-120F. Luckily I am an HVAC professional, so heating and cooling is my forte :D I have two other tents that will be a little more tricky, but shouldn't be an issue.

That's really awesome you had success with the predatory mites, I remember reading about A Cucumeris but have never heard of A Andersoni - can you tell me what supplier you used? Also I remember reading about another predatory people were using that came in the slow release "satchets"... but can't remember the damn species. Swertzi? or Something like that? It'd probably be a good idea to keep predators in my gardens on the long term.

As attractive as the plan sounds, I don't know how confident I am using strictly heat and predatory mites. I'm tickled to know that you had success this route, but, I want to make sure my route is sufficient for my case. Can the predators handle the heat treatments? Did you adjust the temperate/humidity of your room(s) to slow the breeding process of the Broads (cooler temps)? And does this slow the progress of the predators? Are any other treatments compatible with the predators?

I will of course do my own research as far as the predators go, just figured I'd throw those questions for you out there since you have experience with the predators.

I greatly appreciate the time you took to type up your experience, thank you! It's been a couple years since the Broad Mite epidemic hit the community, so it seems like now there has been sufficient trial and error for these little fuckers to be defeated... and I'm particularly hopeful considering I caught this before it could've been much worse.

 

[altitudefarmer]

Great post, Coir!

 

[Coir]

A. Swirskii is the other mite being used. Honestly, I was so impressed with the Cucumeris I would go with just them at this point. They are by far the most cost effective and you can get them in both the slow release bags(sachets) and in bulk. I would make a large bulk release and then get a bag to hang on each plant as well. The slow release bags last around 6-8 weeks and help establish an overlapping population. The more they have to feed on, the more eggs they lay. Once they run out of food, they quit laying more eggs while they search out a new feeding place so your plants will stay clean once the problem is resolved.
I would not use the heat treatments once you introduce the predators. I would definitely do it the night before though. I was skeptical at first that these were the only two things I needed but I hate spraying ANYTHING so figured it was worth a shot and sure enough it worked 100% effectively.
I believe that most of the biological treatments like Caps foliar and the individual components it contains will be much more toxic to the broad mites than the predators but have not used them at the same time.
Another thing I forgot to mention is that if you are seeing the signs of the toxin the broads leave behind, using a 325mg aspirin/gal with each watering/feeding is also recommended. There is also a plant extract called Regalia that is supposed to have the same or similar effect as aspirin on the plants and that same company has a natural insecticide that is also supposed to work on broad mites.
My source for all of the insects I use is this place: http://www.evergreengrowers.com/
And the source for the Regalia is here: http://www.marronebioinnovations.com/products/brand/regalia/
I have not used it personally but know someone that has just started this week in an attempt to cure PM. I'll keep track of their progress and report back.

 

[SpiderK]

Once I got over the initial panic stages, I set out to learn as much as I could about the enemy. It was really disheartening at first with the best solution seeming to be "move to a new house" since you can never get rid of them.

is this true ? once introduced they stay around long term no matter what ?

 

[Myco]

is this true ? once introduced they stay around long term no matter what ?

Here's my two cents on it...

The problem with Broad Mites is the little devils can have a very fast breeding cycle, and can spread and infect an entire room before naked eye detection such as the signs of their damage. People have indeed tossed entire grows and genetic line-ups because of Broads... but nowadays I think more research and trial and error has been done where if proper steps are taken, even a full on infestation can be beaten... albeit with time spent and time lost on potential production. It's all about that early detection.

I experienced Broads a few years ago at a different location... didn't really know what I was dealing with and without the community really knowing much about them, and not all too much invested in that location, I scrapped everything.

A. Swirskii is the other mite being used. Honestly, I was so impressed with the Cucumeris I would go with just them at this point. They are by far the most cost effective and you can get them in both the slow release bags(sachets) and in bulk. I would make a large bulk release and then get a bag to hang on each plant as well. The slow release bags last around 6-8 weeks and help establish an overlapping population. The more they have to feed on, the more eggs they lay. Once they run out of food, they quit laying more eggs while they search out a new feeding place so your plants will stay clean once the problem is resolved.
I would not use the heat treatments once you introduce the predators. I would definitely do it the night before though. I was skeptical at first that these were the only two things I needed but I hate spraying ANYTHING so figured it was worth a shot and sure enough it worked 100% effectively.
I believe that most of the biological treatments like Caps foliar and the individual components it contains will be much more toxic to the broad mites than the predators but have not used them at the same time.
Another thing I forgot to mention is that if you are seeing the signs of the toxin the broads leave behind, using a 325mg aspirin/gal with each watering/feeding is also recommended. There is also a plant extract called Regalia that is supposed to have the same or similar effect as aspirin on the plants and that same company has a natural insecticide that is also supposed to work on broad mites.
My source for all of the insects I use is this place: http://www.evergreengrowers.com/
And the source for the Regalia is here: http://www.marronebioinnovations.com/products/brand/regalia/
I have not used it personally but know someone that has just started this week in an attempt to cure PM. I'll keep track of their progress and report back.

Thank you man, great info and input. Yeah, aspirin is money... I'll also be including that in my battle to keep the immune systems of each plant rolling.

I'll be updating this thread, and I'll let you know how things go, and again I think you my brother.

 

[SpiderK]

I can't believe this has not shut down all the clone trading / buying .... without 100% proof it's clean. I hooked up a friends buddy with my g13 cut, months later he took us out for something to eat & this subject came up. I was bitching about all the bug issues i noticed across calli / colo regarding clones and he told me that they have mites, using neem now but they used that chem stuff also ...... And i could tell by his reaction they are selling it anyway .... With only so many runs a year $$$ talks ..... without testing u never really know ....

Made me sic'

 

[Coir]

That is the great thing about the predatory mites. They will go everywhere a broad mite will and eat them! There is no way you can get to all the places the mites do while cleaning which is why I think they have worked so well for me. I will add that I also put hypoaspis in my medium at the beginning of each cycle to keep things from using it as a breeding ground as well. Again, inexpensive insurance.
I also want to point out to anyone that uses the heat treatment, be sure you water the hell out of your plants right before and keep a close eye on them during. A little common sense goes a long way with all of these cures and nothing replaces good growing practices! My personal experience was no damage from the heat treatments but I have heard of people burning their plants up because they did not water first and had the heaters blowing directly on them.

 

[Myco]

I can't believe this has not shut down all the clone trading / buying .... without 100% proof it's clean. I hooked up a friends buddy with my g13 cut, months later he took us out for something to eat & this subject came up. I was bitching about all the bug issues i noticed across calli / colo regarding clones and he told me that they have mites, using neem now but they used that chem stuff also ...... And i could tell by his reaction they are selling it anyway .... With only so many runs a year $$$ talks ..... without testing u never really know ...

Made me sic'

Yeah some people just simply don't give a fuck about another's demise. Personally I have this strange condition that causes me to care more about other people more than myself... for example: I have a buddy that just built a pretty nice new 6kw room from the ground up, he asked me to help him fill the room with great genetics. So I gave him dozens of clones to get him going. Clones that were across the room from my quarantine tent that contained this infected Cherry Pie cutting.

Due to the possibility of transmitting eggs/live mites to my clone/mother tent, I had to break the news to him that the plants are possibly compromised. So this ambitious friend of mine that is ecstatic about getting his new garden up and running, has to start by treating the plants in the same manner I am. I feel fucking horrible about that... last night was losing sleep over not only my own woes but that I possibly have unknowingly contaminated a good friend's brand new flower room.

Fuck me :(

 

[Capulator]

Hell yeah and you can use the beneficial mites in conjunction with the foliar pack. The foliar pack will not target predatory mites. I would spray full strength foliar every day for 4 days straight (at night time) while you are waiting on the predators. Then release the kraken!!!

 

[Myco]

Hell yeah and you can use the beneficial mites in conjunction with the foliar pack. The foliar pack will not target predatory mites. I would spray full strength foliar every day for 4 days straight (at night time) while you are waiting on the predators. Then release the kraken!!!

Thanks Cap.

That's a good plan, but unfortunately I'm basically out of the foliar pack, plan on ordering some more tonight.

Couple questions... For some reason I've seen a couple conflicting statements about whether or not a wetting agent should be used with the foliar pack. I assume a wetting agent should be used, and that's what I've always done. I have a bunch of Humboldt Sticky laying around (on the label it says "organic saponins") that I believe is okay for microbes as long as you add the wetting agent first. So should a wetting agent be used? And should I be okay using this wetting agent if so?

Also, I've read varying statements about applying the foliar pack with your room at a higher humidity... some saying 60%, some saying 80%. I'd be stoked if you could clarify that. And after applying, is humidity a contributing factor to its effectiveness? As in, should I keep the humidity high after applying?

Should I wait until shortly after lights off? Or just before lights off?

These all may be lame questions, but when I looked through your forum without clear answers as well as googled, without clear answers. I see some people say they've had zero success with the foliar pack for Broad mites, but also see some people say they had great success. I assume that people misuse the foliar pack, and get no results. Just want to make sure I use it properly.

Lastly, are there any treatments that aren't compatible with the foliar pack that I should avoid? Like if I drop a P bomb, use neem/Azamax, heat treatment, etc.

Again, I don't mean to waste your time with questions but I've searched plenty with not much clarification of some of these points....

 

[Capulator]

anything above 60 is great. I spray with lights off for this purpose. You can use a wetting agent. I liek to use yucca myself. you barely need any and it works so good.

All those latter treatments are bad for bennies.

 

[Myco]

Cool, thanks brother. And yeah I've been meaning to pick up some yucca extract... have so much of the "Sticky" that it keeps slipping my mind.

Yeah, I'd figured as much about those treatments...

What about heat treatments?